This log is from 28. April 2002. This is where Sotek came into it, after seeing the end of the first discussion with Kaelic.
It has been edited slightly, removing addresses and complely unrelated things. Note that my editing may not be perfect, and that some unrelated or partly unrelated things might be left. I have tried my best to not cut out too much, and thereby might have left in more than necessary. :P
This is as seen from EdorFaus' viewpoint, with his local times of the day. Raw log file(ASCII)


[00:42] <Sotek> Edor! I saw in buffer you talking about a MMORPG variant of Stars! :o
[00:42] <EdorFaus> ah heh, that's Kaelic's idea, not mine :)
[00:42] <Sotek> Ah. Hmm. Bah. ;)
[00:42] <Sotek> I think it sounds cool. ;)
[00:43] <EdorFaus> yea me too...
[00:43] <EdorFaus> although he wanted to charge money to play it :P
[00:43] <Sotek> Pffftyeahright. :P
[00:44] <Sotek> What I'd do to solve the problem of a few people ruling the universe would be to have it create 
  new galaxies every so often for new players, so newbies would face off /against/ newbies, and make it 
  extremely expensive to traverse between galaxies. ^^
[00:45] <EdorFaus> sotek: that was suggested
[00:45] <EdorFaus> another thing that was suggested was that once players reached a certain level of power, they 
  were moved into a new universe with players of similar power
[00:46] <Sotek> Hmm.
[00:46] <Sotek> I don't like that one. ^^
[00:46] <EdorFaus> another thing suggested was making the game so that established players would rather have the 
  newbies as allies instead of breaking them - possibly by making it very hard to break 'em
[00:46] <Sotek> True... hm.
[00:46] <Sotek> How to do that, tho'. :P
[00:46] <EdorFaus> we were looking into ways of doing it too :)
[00:47] <Sotek> Well, that's one thing I'm suggesting. ^^
[00:47] <Kaelic> Sotek: Hey, if you could run a server to support thousands of people at once 23/7 with decent 
  graphics and not costing anything, I would love to do it that way
[00:47] <Sotek> If it's like Stars, Kaelic, you won't /get/ thousands of people.
[00:47] <Kaelic> Even a hundred would cost a lot to support
[00:47] <Sotek> And it can be a MMORPGish with turnbased.
[00:48] <Sotek> And I can do a MUD for free for yes, less people. Having a hundred /at all times/, I could do if 
  it were starsish.
[00:48] <Kaelic> Then it just isn't the same
[00:49] <Sotek> ...isn't the same as what?
[00:49] <EdorFaus> well, any such game will have to be turnbased... only difference is how small timeframe the 
  turns are(as in, <1sec or >5mins)
[00:49] <Sotek> Anyway, Edor, my way was to be a suggestion on that. ^^
[00:50] <Sotek> Specifically, getting to /anyone/ else is highly expensive, but if you can establish, you could 
  probably do nasty things. ^^
[00:51] <EdorFaus> we were thinking of making it so that to invade, you'll need ppl... like in a popdrop... but 
  a planet has more ppl the less planets that player has :)
[00:51] <Sotek> Hm. Plausible, but that means there's a point at which people won't /want/ to expand.
[00:52] <Kaelic> Sotek: The populations would grow of course, just not fast enough to be on a constant offensive
[00:52] <EdorFaus> so a big player with lots of planets may have to pull all the people from several of zir 
  planets just to take one planet of a player with few/one planets
[00:52] <Sotek> Oh, I see. sort of like how stars's growth works, but with #planets affecting it too?
[00:53] <EdorFaus> something like that-.
[00:53] <EdorFaus> but also that new players start with rather many ppl on their one world
[00:53] <Sotek> Right. You start perhaps with a maxed?
[00:53] <Sotek> Would let people start out faster.
[00:54] <EdorFaus> well, if not maxed then at least very many
[00:54] <Kaelic> Yeah, so people look more towards less populated large players planet to make assaults on even 
  if they risk hitting a defensive fleet
[00:54] <Sotek> Mmmhm. I /see/. Or a newbie immunity as some such games do...
[00:55] <EdorFaus> and also, # of ppl on a planet will affect how quickly it builds up, so new players' worlds 
  will grow big and strong sooner than experienced players' worlds (assuming they have many planets)
[00:55] * Sotek is currently thinking along the lines of Planetarion and Empirequest for those who've played 'em.
[00:55] <Sotek> Logical. :P
[00:55] <EdorFaus> I played planetarion a little, way back before the restart
[00:56] <Kaelic> I played a bit too
[00:56] <Sotek> Which restart, Edor? ;)
[00:56] <EdorFaus> there's been new ones? :P I'm thinking the first one :P
[00:56] <Sotek> I played off and on until they went to pay.
[00:56] <Kaelic> Also the nice thing about this newbie system is it allows people to play more defensively, stay 
  tucked in and build from there without risk of much attack, biding time slowly
[00:56] <Sotek> Right...
[00:57] <Sotek> Well, see, if it's non-pay, I'd /like/ to see people getting slain a lot.
[00:57] <Sotek> Perhaps new galaxies of the size of a single Stars! game, and only two or three of the people in 
  it are likely to make it on.
[00:58] <Kaelic> perhaps you should try Territories
[00:58] <Sotek> Also, if you have tech, there could be a chance of gaining tech just by /fighting/ someone with 
  highly advanced tech. Sort of an "Ooh. That's possible?" effect.
[00:58] <Kaelic> Or rather its called Starseige I think
[00:59] <Sotek> I mean, if oyu have that and the intergalactic transit cost so that the experienced person would 
  only be able to take a single planet and with little fleet in the new galaxy, as they build up, the newbies 
  can get their tech and possibly team up to force that person out of their galaxy. ^^
[00:59] <Kaelic> Doesn't that lose a bit of the MMOG feel?
[01:00] <Orca> heh
[01:00] <Orca> thing is, with all this, what's the point of playing?
[01:01] <Kaelic> to be better than everyone else I would imagine
[01:01] <EdorFaus> just to play? :P
[01:02] <Sotek> How so, Kae? :P
[01:02] <EdorFaus> besides, we were thinking having some big empires that were fighting... you join one side or 
  the other, trying to get rid of the other side... eventually, big players might form new sides...
[01:02] <Sotek> If it's strategy, you can only face so many at a time.
[01:02] <Kaelic> Sotek: Well if it were a bunch of small galaxies and playing to get to better ones, then its 
  more like a tournament game
[01:02] <Kaelic> Thats the idea, its not just a strategy, but an empire simulator
[01:03] <Sotek> ...erm. nono.
[01:04] <Sotek> You keep your initial galaxy. And people can attack your home and so on. Early on, you won't be 
  up to the task of attacking outside your home. Later you will... ::Shrug::
[01:04] <Kaelic> I think your looking at it more like Planetarion
[01:05] <EdorFaus> sotek: did you read the entire discussion?
[01:05] <Sotek> Only what I could see. ^^;
[01:05] <Sotek> and I can't see any more now. :P
[01:05] <EdorFaus> k.. I'll grab my logs... so you can see what's suggested
[01:06] <Sotek> Maybe so, Kaelic. But Planetarion's limits are a bit excessive; the single-planet per player 
  model's a bit absurd.
[01:06] <Kaelic> Sotek: You a star wars fan at all?
[01:06] <Sotek> A bit.
[01:06] <Kaelic> You know how the Republic worked/works in it?
[01:06] <Sotek> Ah... no. ^^
[01:07] <Kaelic> okay...ummm let me think of a better example
[01:08] <Sotek> Try just explaining. :P
[01:09] <Kaelic> Okay imagine theres these large factions, but each faction is made up by the hundreds of 
  different species which decide to join or not, but each species tends to its own matters on its own while 
  still contributing to the whole faction. Each species (which is each a player) will represent itself in a kind 
  of senate in each faction. this probably doesn't make sense from me, maybe the logs will explain better
[01:10] <Sotek> Okay... that itself is making sense...
[01:10] <Sotek> the factions are the alliances or whatever... yeah.
[01:11] <Kaelic> yeah, the first few will be very large and staff ran, they won't make all the decisions but 
  will kind of uphold law within their faction zones and keep senate meetings in order
[01:11] <Kaelic> the hope is that as factions fall to others, player start to form their own and eventually 
  there aren't anymore staff ran factions, and all the players will be running the galaxy in a sense
[01:12] <Sotek> Mmmhm. I'd at least suggest there be galaxies, even if they're much larger than stars-type ones, 
  and even if they're just clumps. Erm. ^^
[01:12] <Kaelic> Well one galaxy is exceedingly huge, maybe two but a bunch might just get way too big
[01:13] <EdorFaus> there's the log excerpts
[01:13] <EdorFaus> er. excerpt
[01:13] <Sotek> Well, how big is big? And is there going to be clustering? :P
[01:13] <Kaelic> Oh well there will be sectors, spots where stars are closer together in the galaxy, it would 
  just get too chaotic if not
[01:14] <EdorFaus> (note: I just cut out from when he mentioned it to when he left after the discussion, there 
  might be unrelated things there too)
[01:14] <Sotek> Heh. :P
[01:14] <Sotek> Ooh. Globular clusters? ;)
[01:15] <EdorFaus> hmm... I just thought of something... will this be 2D or 3D?
[01:15] <Kaelic> I was thinking about that too
[01:15] <Kaelic> 3D could give it a better realism feel but could also complicate things
[01:15] <EdorFaus> 3D is more realistic and gives more space and possibilities - but is harder both to do and to 
  represent visually
[01:15] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:16] <Kaelic> 2D makes it much easier to layout borders and things too
[01:16] <EdorFaus> yes...
[01:16] <EdorFaus> while 3D makes it much easier to sneak around borders :)
[01:16] <Sotek> Hmm.
[01:16] <Sotek> 3D is /cool/. but 3D is tough. :P
[01:16] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:16] <EdorFaus> and especially so to make
[01:17] <Sotek> Yeah. And if you have 3D and don't allow vertical attack-type motions, I'll be upset. ;)
[01:17] <EdorFaus> hehe yea
[01:17] <Kaelic> maybe 3D to an extent to sneak around but not to the point of stacking stars above, like for 
  instance in Star Trek Armada II it is a 3D RTS that is over the top view, but you can go up and down to sneak 
  past people. but just slightly
[01:17] <Sotek> Blech.
[01:17] <EdorFaus> hmm
[01:18] <Kaelic> like imagine a a room being 10ft x 10ft x 2ft, if that makes sense
[01:18] <EdorFaus> that sounds a little dodgy. imo it's best to stick to completely 2D or completely 3D. of 
  which the former is much easier to create and manage... while the latter gives much more player options, 
  realism, and problems in planet management :)
[01:19] <Sotek> Yeah, I suppose, Kael.
[01:19] <Sotek> I agree with Edor.
[01:19] <EdorFaus> hm yea
[01:19] <Sotek> 2.1D is no good. ;)
[01:19] <Kaelic> heh
[01:19] <EdorFaus> another problem is, where will the edges of the universe be? :P
[01:19] <Sotek> The edge of the galaxy. :P
[01:19] <Sotek> You go past it, your ships get lost. :P
[01:19] <Kaelic> Yeah, I mean if you really wanted to fly into the vast emptiness between them
[01:19] <EdorFaus> starting near an edge or near the center might affect playability
[01:20] <Sotek> Well, depends on size.
[01:20] <Sotek> Also... hm.
[01:20] <EdorFaus> hm, one option would be to utilize the wrap-around theory... that if you go off one edge, you 
  come back at the other
[01:20] <Kaelic> I was thinking, even though locations will be hidden, new players generally start near 
  civilization, like it creates them as the size of player base is
[01:21] <Kaelic> Does that make sense?
[01:21] <EdorFaus> rh
[01:21] <EdorFaus> eh
[01:21] <Sotek> Actually, I know a point that'd make it almost impossible to wipe someone out assuming we're 
  having it large. I mean, if they're not gone until they've lost /all/ people, if you start with a few 
  'slowboats' not travelling at warp that might pop up if needed at a new planet... ::Shrug::.
[01:21] <EdorFaus> creates new planets? or?
[01:22] <Sotek> Not creates as such.
[01:22] <Sotek> Well.
[01:22] <Sotek> Creates as a new player joining does.
[01:22] <Sotek> Takes an empty planet and pfoof.
[01:22] <Kaelic> Yeah, have a set number of planets
[01:22] <EdorFaus> yea that's what I thought it should be like
[01:22] <Sotek> Because if you have to 'start over' with the same tech and so on, but not your planets...
[01:22] <Sotek> Also, don't have penscans.
[01:23] <EdorFaus> sotek: a good idea then might be to start with the tech you had when that ship was launched, 
  or last had contact with other ships :)
[01:23] <Sotek> Hm. Yeah, true. Make sure everyone has one to start for free, and then can launch more if they 
  feel the need. :P
[01:23] <Kaelic> Another possibility is help from your Faction like "The (name here) faction has rescued your 
  few survivors and placed you on a secluded planet" or along those lines
[01:23] <Sotek> And make it so nobody can be destroyed by suprise. ;P
[01:24] <Sotek> Yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting, Kael, just with a different explanation. Hm.
[01:24] <Sotek> Also, allow other players to be able to carry your people so that you can stealth-colonize 
  around an enemy? P
[01:24] <Kaelic> Sotek: I prefer your method
[01:24] <Kaelic> Yeah thats a good idea
[01:24] <EdorFaus> hmm good idea... iRL that would be possible
[01:25] <Sotek> Or both; The faction intervention requires actual /player/ intervention.
[01:25] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:25] <Kaelic> But they could in turn ship your men off into a black hole in a double cross
[01:25] <EdorFaus> hehehe yea
[01:25] <Sotek> The slowboat is just you sending people into the future as an insurance policy.
[01:25] <Sotek> And yes, Kael. Of course. ;)
[01:25] <EdorFaus> or just into deep space for that matter
[01:25] <Sotek> Just like in Stars!, if you ask an IT to send your ships from A to B, there's that chance he 
  won't. :P
[01:25] <Kaelic> Sotek: The slowboat could even bee cryo-ships that people send off to guarantee there races 
  survival
[01:26] <Sotek> Essentially what I'm saying, Kael.
[01:26] <Kaelic> bee? wow I'm tired
[01:26] <EdorFaus> hmm. if your race can survive in really low pressure and without an atmosphere... :P
[01:26] <Sotek> Cryo, generation ships, just something charging along at .9c... :P
[01:26] <Sotek> Hm. Honor points sounds cool...
[01:27] *** Kaelic1 has joined #Stars!
[01:27] <EdorFaus> possibly, yes, although it has problems
[01:27] <Kaelic1> What I miss?
[01:27] <EdorFaus> [01:26] <Kaelic> bee? wow I'm tired
[01:27] <EdorFaus> [01:26] <EdorFaus> hmm. if your race can survive in really low pressure and without an 
  atmosphere... :P
[01:27] <EdorFaus> [01:26] <Sotek> Cryo, generation ships, just something charging along at .9c... :P
[01:27] <EdorFaus> [01:26] <Sotek> Hm. Honor points sounds cool...
[01:27] <Kaelic1> thanks
[01:27] <EdorFaus> np
[01:27] <Sotek> Honor points loss is easy enough... hm. Maybe gain just /happens/?
[01:27] <Sotek> Like, if you didn't lose any in the last n turns, you gain one?
[01:28] <EdorFaus> that's the problem :P it would be very hard to implement realistically
[01:28] <Kaelic1> Population attitude would be a good replacement for honor
[01:28] <Kaelic1> Like if you do bad things your people don't like you for it, and others can see and know that
[01:28] <EdorFaus> yea... besides, honor is dependant on who looks...
[01:29] <Sotek> Well.. hm.
[01:29] <Sotek> A reputation that people can see, too?
[01:29] <Sotek> Lower rep, more things may cost?
[01:29] <EdorFaus> and what they know... if someone doesn't know about you wiping a small player out, how could 
  they know your honor isn't as large as they think? :P
[01:29] <Kaelic1> Or lower rep, less trade with NPC traders or less say in the senate, many possibilities
[01:29] <Sotek> 'swhat I mean, Kael. ^^
[01:30] <Sotek> Point... but then, if we allow a central infobank, things like that could happen allatime... hm. 
  Chance for small random changes due to 'rumor'...
[01:30] *** Kaelic Quit (Ping timeout for Kaelic)
[01:30] <Kaelic1> I also suggested yesterday propoganda with your people to cover up incidents
[01:30] *** Kaelic1 is now known as Kaelic
[01:30] <Kaelic> but at a cost of resources and time of course
[01:30] <EdorFaus> not only NPC traders, either... other players might not want to trade with you if your 
  standards are low... they might be percieved as less for doing so
[01:31] <EdorFaus> hm, lose honor for trading with ppl of little honor :)
[01:31] <Sotek> True...
[01:31] <EdorFaus> the reputation idea is better tho, imo
[01:31] <Kaelic> You could have an advisor type thing which checks on a players reputation and tells you when 
  your doing a deal what they do, like known for backstabbing or something
[01:31] <EdorFaus> works sortof the same way
[01:31] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:32] <Kaelic> either of you ever play Ultima Online or Everquest?
[01:32] <Sotek> 'sactly. Yeh... hm.
[01:32] <EdorFaus> not me. neither.
[01:32] <Kaelic> Sotek: That was a yes to my question?
[01:33] <Sotek> I... think so, yes, Kael. ^^;
[01:33] <Sotek> and I've played Asheron's Call... ...for a few minutes.
[01:33] <Sotek> UGH THE LAMENESS HURT ;_;
[01:34] <Kaelic> I'm trying to perceive a species as a character, where technology is the skills, for instance 
  you can lose everything in Ultima Online but never your skills, so you will always be worth something, if that 
  was a factor in this then being wiped out to the point of generation ships landing wouldn't be too bad
[01:34] <EdorFaus> hm yea
[01:35] <Sotek> Yeah, that's an analogy.
[01:35] <Sotek> If you're wiped out, you lose the ability to project power for a while.
[01:35] <Sotek> And you stop gain for a bit.
[01:35] <Sotek> But you can recover without spending too long.
[01:35] <EdorFaus> although the idea of them not having the very latest of your tech is good imo, since they 
  probably wouldn't have known about it(yet)
[01:36] <Sotek> True... hm. I like the idea of when you send a ship, the tech on it is stored. :P
[01:36] <Kaelic> You could say they transmit it to the ships when they discover it
[01:36] <EdorFaus> iow, the analogy isn't perfect, since it's just a piece of the char that was detached earlier
[01:36] <Sotek> Yeah, you could, Kael. The issue is then...
[01:36] <EdorFaus> yea, but if it's the very latest it tech, they might not have had the chance to recieve it 
  before it was too late and the data was lost
[01:36] <Sotek> can the ships be discovered? If they're transmissible to, then apparently yes... if they're 
  /not/, then why not?
[01:37] <Sotek> Hm. Well, don't you lose a bit of skill points when you die in EQ?
[01:37] <Kaelic> Just say you lose a level of each tech, that would suffice wouldn't it?
[01:37] <Sotek> I say anything learned more recently than x time.
[01:37] <Kaelic> That would be better
[01:37] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:38] <Sotek> So if you /SHOT/ up tech while dying, you might lose a lot. But if you couldn't gain /anything/ 
  while you were dying, maybe you won't lose a thing.
[01:38] <Sotek> And of course, you keep /everything/ since your last genship launch.
[01:38] <EdorFaus> ofcourse
[01:38] <EdorFaus> so if you can spare the resources, it might be a good idea to launch one right before you die 
  :)
[01:38] <Sotek> Yeeees. ;)
[01:38] <Sotek> Which makes sense.
[01:38] <Kaelic> Also I feel technology shouldn't just be a research action, it should be you actually building 
  a say Propulsion Lab and commiting resources and men to it
[01:39] <Sotek> Yeah, that makes sense too, Kael.
[01:39] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:39] <Sotek> ...I want to do this. ;_;
[01:39] * Sotek probably actually has the ability to write the server-side aspect of it now, it'd just be 
  eeeeevil. :P
[01:40] <Kaelic> Maybe instead direct levels like 1, 2, 3 it would be a large percentage like in UO, say you 
  start at 10.0 and you build a propulsion lab and over a week your up to 25.9 or something
[01:40] <Sotek> hmm. Yes.
[01:40] <EdorFaus> and a good thing is to not know what comes next in tech, except maybe what is very soon to 
  come
[01:40] <EdorFaus> afterall, you don't know that iRL
[01:40] <Sotek> How is tech transfer handled, though?
[01:41] <EdorFaus> hmm
[01:41] <EdorFaus> imo it should be possible to give someone an item, so that they can build it (if they can 
  build what's needed to build it)
[01:41] <Kaelic> Well say at 22.7 you learn a fusion of sort, instead of sending points you actually send the 
  technology but the people won't be able to use it perfectly until they reach 22.7, then they fully understand
[01:41] <EdorFaus> as in, give them the plans
[01:41] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:42] <EdorFaus> good idea
[01:42] <Omnivore> treat tech items as memes
[01:42] <Sotek> Yeah. The plans. I like that idea.
[01:42] <Sotek> Yeeeees, Omni. :D
[01:42] <EdorFaus> memes? :P
[01:42] <Kaelic> yeah, what Edor said
[01:42] <Omnivore> memes - theoretical/imaginary objects encapsulating abstract concepts
[01:43] <Omnivore> ie a thought
[01:43] <EdorFaus> ah...
[01:43] <Omnivore> memes can make a decent model anytime you need to model information flow
[01:43] <EdorFaus> meme : an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture 
[01:43] <Orca> that's what they do, natch
[01:44] <Omnivore> build a tech tree with each node as a meme
[01:44] <Sotek> Now, the question is, is anyone actually going to do this? :P
[01:44] <Kaelic> Well I would in 3 years time
[01:44] <EdorFaus> so, if they have gotten the plans for something, and have the requirements to build it, they 
  should be able to make imperfect copies of it... once they've reached the level where they would get it 
  themselves though, no more imperfection
[01:44] <Omnivore> memes can be achieved be research and transferred between players
[01:45] <Kaelic> When I finished my Uni courses
[01:45] <Sotek> ...who needs to finish, Kael? ;)
[01:45] <EdorFaus> heh, I'd help :)
[01:45] <Sotek> I could at least help now. ;)
[01:45] <EdorFaus> I'm starting CS next year and already have programming experience(well, on a private level) :)
[01:45] <Omnivore> do it open source - hell you might even talk me into pitching in, lol
[01:45] <EdorFaus> hehe
[01:45] <Kaelic> Well my programming knowledge is at VB level, my courses at Uni (which I start in september) 
  will be teaching me C++
[01:46] <EdorFaus> ya... mine is pascal/VB/Delphi/assembler
[01:46] <EdorFaus> but I guess I'll learn C++ too :)
[01:46] <Sotek> Who needs to finish? ;P
[01:47] <Kaelic> It would be a great game to make, even if nobody played
[01:47] <Sotek> ...you know assembly? o_O;;
[01:47] <Sotek> And Kael? We /KNOW/ there'd be a playerbase. ;)
[01:47] <Sotek> At least, there would if it were free.
[01:47] <EdorFaus> well, I'm no expert, but I know the basics of x86 assembly :)
[01:47] <Sotek> So... hell. Do it opensource. ;P
[01:48] <Kaelic> opensource = unscrupulous individuals
[01:48] <Orca> hahaha
[01:48] <EdorFaus> eh
[01:48] <Omnivore> Kaelic = brain dead
[01:48] <Orca> open source == unscrupulous individuals.  Peace is somehow a bad thing.  Dude, you've got some 
  STRANGE ideas
[01:48] <Kaelic> lol
[01:49] <Sotek> ...how does opensource = unscrupulous individuals? o_O
[01:49] <Sotek> You see, as soon as a cheat is discovered, with opensource, it can be /fixed/. ;)
[01:49] <Kaelic> What I mean is, if we did make it I would rather not have the source open to people we don't 
  know
[01:49] <Sotek> If you mean someone taking it and running their own server, well, yeah, that's a possibility. 
  Big deal. ...hm. well, you don't know me either, but I take your meaning.
[01:49] * EdorFaus isn't unscrupulous, at least I don't think so, but I tend to make my stuff open source... 
  true, I haven't really published anything yet, but still. I'm planning to.
[01:50] <Sotek> Until it's done, allow anyone who wants in in, but once it's done...? :P
[01:50] <Sotek> I just want to start soon, damnit. Big projects are fun. ;)
[01:50] <EdorFaus> hm
[01:50] <Sotek> ...can we do a blitz now, if we won't continue planning this? ^_-
[01:51] <Kaelic> I wouldn't mind starting now
[01:51] <EdorFaus> semi-opensource would be better than closed source at least
[01:51] <Kaelic> Edor: I agree
[01:51] <EdorFaus> but fully opensource does have problems...
[01:51] <Sotek> Yeah, semi-open's a nice idea. At least, open to all the #stars! regs, mm? ;)
[01:51] <Kaelic> Yeah
[01:52] <Sotek> hm. From my POV, the hardest thing to have in a game is a system. ^^
[01:52] <EdorFaus> should of course say that we want bug reports... and actually *do* something about them 
  whenever possible, not just sit on 'em
[01:52] <Kaelic> heh
[01:52] <EdorFaus> system, as in..?
[01:53] <Kaelic> Like, the Engine?
[01:53] <EdorFaus> k
[01:53] <Kaelic> I think
[01:53] <Sotek> Sorta.
[01:53] <Sotek> The system being the rules of the engine.
[01:53] <EdorFaus> yea, that's the hardest part... the clients and interface, and client-server deal isn't very 
  hard
[01:53] <EdorFaus> ah
[01:53] <EdorFaus> k
[01:53] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:54] <Sotek> I mean, once you have the rules, actually programming them isn't all too tough.
[01:54] <Kaelic> So we need to come up with rules first then
[01:54] <EdorFaus> heh yea... at least usually
[01:54] <EdorFaus> yep
[01:54] <EdorFaus> hm, is someone writing down what we decide on here?
[01:55] <EdorFaus> :P
[01:55] <Sotek> The client, assuming it's largely display, will be /easy/... oh. yes. One thing, I think perhaps 
  the client should be /full/ opensource. Require the login to get the current data, and fully validate all 
  client information (if it's turnbased, that's doable, no?), and allow people to make their own client so long 
  as the data is valid. I mean, if it's largely a display and you control what it's told... ::shrug::. Adn I'm 
  not recording myself. ^
[01:55] <Kaelic> Maybe we should come up with some sort of storage, maybe a site we could store logs from here 
  on or something
[01:55] <Sotek> Hm.
[01:56] <EdorFaus> hm, I guess
[01:56] <EdorFaus> client being full opensource is a good idea
[01:56] <Sotek> I've got a webserver on this box, the problem is nobody but me has actual access to the box. :P
[01:56] <Kaelic> hmm
[01:57] <EdorFaus> I've got a site where we can put it up... although I don't really like giving out my pwd, I 
  suppose I could put up a php system so we can make posts
[01:57] <Sotek> And... yes. Client full opensource. I mean, if we use the stars info model, so long as we don't 
  allow the player to /have/ data they shouldn't, and we validate everything, it won't matter what you do to the 
  client.
[01:57] <Kaelic> How quick should turns be if it is turn based?
[01:57] <Sotek> Hm. Personally, I think that should be adjustable...
[01:58] <EdorFaus> to keep it real-time-like they should be rather short imo
[01:58] <Sotek> (server-side, of course.)
[01:58] <EdorFaus> yea I guess
[01:58] <Kaelic> I think a close to real-time would be good
[01:58] <Sotek> Every hour or every day seems to be good models for the Planetarion-type games.
[01:58] <Sotek> Maybe fifteen-thirty minutes?
[01:58] <EdorFaus> but I think this needs more realtime than planetarion
[01:58] <EdorFaus> hm
[01:58] <Kaelic> theres upsides and downsides to this
[01:58] <EdorFaus> yea
[01:58] <Sotek> Mm... Planetarion was pretty realtime, IMO. 
[01:59] <EdorFaus> I felt more like a turn a minute, at least...
[01:59] <Sotek> Remember, you need it so that people can go for a weekend and not get /quashed/.
[01:59] <EdorFaus> so that it is more realtime than not
[01:59] <Sotek> A turn a minute is...
[01:59] <Sotek> 1440 turns a day...
[01:59] <Sotek> Say someone misses three days...
[01:59] <Sotek> 4320...
[01:59] <Kaelic> Okay heres a thought
[01:59] <Sotek> That's quite a bit. ^^;
[01:59] <EdorFaus> well, queueing orders and such should be possible, and a turn shouldn't be very much time 
  game-wise either
[01:59] <Sotek> Although, it'd be rather like blitz as opposed to PBEMish. Mm. True.
[02:00] <EdorFaus> not like in stars, where a turn is a year
[02:00] <Sotek> Good point.
[02:00] <Sotek> Well, turn calibration is a testing issue, IMO.
[02:00] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:00] <Kaelic> if it were actually Real-Time but things went slowly then you could give enough orders for 3 
  days, or set orders to always follow
[02:00] <Sotek> The system itself is the more general point.
[02:00] <Sotek> So... hm. Species should be adjustable... /how/ adjustable?
[02:01] <Sotek> (and can we do a blitz while we do this or something? :P)
[02:01] <Kaelic> lol
[02:01] <EdorFaus> heh
[02:01] * EdorFaus thinks sotek *really* wants to blitz :)
[02:01] <Sotek> Nah. ;)
[02:01] <Kaelic> I think a species should have just a few key features you pick at start which never change, 
  like physical attributes, then the technology is totally your own choice as which trees you follow
[02:02] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:02] <Sotek> Well, yeah. But how much is key attribute wise?
[02:02] <EdorFaus> should not have complete control, at least
[02:02] <Sotek> Mm?
[02:03] <EdorFaus> I mean, some things should be common
[02:03] <Sotek> Such as?
[02:03] <Omnivore> make the races clans - players are fleet commanders ala Homeworld but operate via 
  telepresence 
[02:03] <EdorFaus> well.. not being able to survive in deep space, not being able to adjust the settings past a 
  certain point...
[02:04] <EdorFaus> hm
[02:04] <Kaelic> Perhaps every species should be the same physically? ie. they all breath oxygen, they all need 
  a certain gravity, that way the only advantages are types of tech and your strategy
[02:04] <EdorFaus> hm
[02:05] <EdorFaus> that *could* work I guess... but it has disadvantages too
[02:05] <Sotek> Mm... well, yeah, no deep-space survival.
[02:05] <Sotek> But I like the idea that some planets are completely useless to people.
[02:05] <EdorFaus> I think some things should be settable, like the gravity they can live in, cuz then two races 
  can intercolonize without getting at eachother's throats
[02:05] <Sotek> or to some people.
[02:05] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:05] <Sotek> Yeh.
[02:05] <Sotek> Like... sliders, but they don't go all the way to 0.
[02:05] <EdorFaus> yes
[02:06] <Kaelic> We just have to make sure they all even out in some way
[02:06] <Sotek> Also, if we were to use rad/temp/grav, I'd think rad should be more a region of space thing, so 
  that adjacent planets would be about the same.
[02:06] <EdorFaus> sorta like stars!... but I think immunity should be impossible, and also impossible to grab 
  the entire field
[02:06] <Sotek> Or just a fixed width?
[02:06] <Sotek> You just sldie it?
[02:06] <EdorFaus> hm, I'd say almost fixed but not completely
[02:06] <Kaelic> That would work
[02:07] <Sotek> But what would they give up for widening? points? :P
[02:07] <EdorFaus> hm, maybe a small margin of adjustment, where you had to have a total amount of width, no 
  more no less
[02:07] <Sotek> Aaah.
[02:07] <Sotek> So your grav might be thin, but your rad wide.
[02:07] <EdorFaus> so if you widened rad, you'd have to lessen temp or grav
[02:07] <Sotek> Yeh... hm.
[02:07] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:08] <EdorFaus> that would probably mean that most would take fairly mid-level races, although we would 
  probably get a few extremes
[02:08] <Kaelic> Just remember the more complicated physical attributes get, the more likely we accidently make 
  open an uber species
[02:08] <Sotek> Well, have it slideable.
[02:08] <EdorFaus> yes ofcourse
[02:08] <Sotek> And make sure that the planet distribution is basically random.
[02:09] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:09] <Sotek> And that way, if everyone's middle, the extremes are 'uber', but if new people know this... yeah.
[02:09] <EdorFaus> hm.. should we have 1 planet/starsystem like in stars!, or maybe more than 1 planet per star, 
  so that different races might live in the same star system?
[02:09] <Sotek> That's one stars thing that annoyed me, honestly.
[02:09] <Kaelic> multiple planets I say
[02:10] <Sotek> I /like/ multiple planets.
[02:10] <EdorFaus> it does make more sense
[02:10] <Sotek> Hm. For a degree of realism, we could make it so that the closer in the planet, the hotter, so 
  that you'd only be able to have one or two...
[02:10] <EdorFaus> hm, and I guess we should have some planets that aren't livable by anyone... like gas giants 
  or the like :)
[02:10] <Sotek> And if rad is by region of space...
[02:10] <Sotek> Then you'd intersettle best with people of the same rad but different temp.
[02:10] <Sotek> :P
[02:10] <EdorFaus> rad would get higher the closer to the star too, right?
[02:11] <Kaelic> Also if planets aren't a suited gravity or radiation of the sort rather then beinge deadly just 
  make it a growth stunt, cause they could always build facilities to live in
[02:11] <Sotek> A bit.
[02:11] <Sotek> But then, the area of space will matter too.
[02:11] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:11] <Sotek> I mean, temp'd be completely star-distance based, really.
[02:11] <Sotek> Rad'd be a lot more area.
[02:11] <EdorFaus> yes
[02:11] <EdorFaus> Kaelic: yes, that would make sense
[02:12] <Sotek> Well...
[02:12] <Sotek> I don't know about grav.
[02:12] <EdorFaus> although some planets should probably be deadly, say if you have temp at one extreme, you 
  can't live on planets that are in the other extreme
[02:12] <Sotek> Grav could well be deadly.
[02:12] <Sotek> Or at least severe stunt.
[02:12] <Kaelic> Don't you think making species this different could cause problems?
[02:12] <EdorFaus> hm yes... if it is higher than "normal"... if it is lower though
[02:12] <Sotek> How so, Kael?
[02:13] <Sotek> It allows more people to share space.
[02:13] <Sotek> It /won't/ allow an 'uber'.
[02:13] <EdorFaus> well, we don't have to use all the attributes stars! has, we could e.g. drop the rad 
  setting... only have grav and temp
[02:13] <Kaelic> Okay I'm totally basing this off of current sci-fi's
[02:13] <Kaelic> Look at B5
[02:13] <EdorFaus> well, a lot of current sci-fis are rather implausible
[02:13] <Sotek> Ew. How about we don't? ;)
[02:13] <EdorFaus> hehe
[02:13] <Sotek> Yeah. If you want to go with SF, go with SF /books/.
[02:13] <Kaelic> Okay any sci-fi then
[02:14] <Sotek> SF. not sci-fi. >P
[02:14] *** Ash_food has joined #stars!
[02:14] *** Ash_food is now known as JFeeple
[02:14] <Kaelic> Most species can interact with each other on the same planet
[02:14] * Sotek shrugs.
[02:14] <Sotek> There's no real need for that, though.
[02:14] <EdorFaus> B5 does have some good points compared to others, like different atmospheres and such, but 
  still everyone likes the same grav etc
[02:14] <Kaelic> Edor: You said it better than I could
[02:15] <Sotek> TV shows want that because a /story/ is hard to tell without the characters physically 
  interacting.
[02:15] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:15] <Kaelic> I think everyone should be roughly same as needing gravity, just a slight difference but 
  atmosphere would be an issue
[02:15] <Sotek> But I've seen many a book that have species in completely different environments.
[02:15] <EdorFaus> yes... I was thinking about that too
[02:15] <EdorFaus> heh
[02:15] <EdorFaus> I haven't...
[02:15] <JFeeple> EF: there comes a point where the "necessities" of TV have to take over from Sci-Fi... or 
  would you rather that the chars never have any personal contact, but all over comlink, as they are all 
  cocooned  in their own environment area
[02:15] <Sotek> I mean, I think grav should be able to vary.
[02:15] <EdorFaus> but then I haven't read all that many current books
[02:16] <Hunter> I have!
[02:16] <Kaelic> vary yes but I don't think one race could handle a gravity another couldn't, just be an 
  inconvenience
[02:16] <Sotek> Well, also, what's livable for adults is a lot wider than what's livable for babies.
[02:16] <EdorFaus> JF: yea I know.
[02:16] <Hunter> I read the new phone book just yesterday
[02:16] <JFeeple> Hunter: bout to do BR
[02:16] <Sotek> Sure they could, Kael. at least the babies. :P
[02:16] <Hunter> k
[02:16] <JFeeple> how was the plot?
[02:16] <Hunter> Prdictable  :P
[02:16] <EdorFaus> hehehe
[02:16] <Hunter> predictable even
[02:16] <Kaelic> Just as long as you don't have such a range as its blob people and rock people
[02:16] <Sotek> I mean, if you went somewhere where surface gravity was 5 or 6gs, you'd died pretty damn quick. 
  :P
[02:16] <Sotek> ...why not? :P
[02:16] <Kaelic> there we be no way of interacting
[02:17] <Sotek> And why not?
[02:17] <EdorFaus> do you *want* to be interacting all that much?
[02:17] <Sotek> There's comlink.
[02:17] <Sotek> I mean, your fleets can still interact.
[02:17] <Sotek> You can still /speak/.
[02:17] <Sotek> And what else can you really do with someone else?
[02:17] <EdorFaus> hm, what would happen if you're used to 5-6g and come to a .4g world? jump real high? :)
[02:18] <JFeeple> listen to your muscles (or whatever equivlant you have) atrophy
[02:18] <Sotek> You'd actually eventurally die of bone loss/muscle atrophy. :P
[02:18] <EdorFaus> yea I guess - but it wouldn't be instant, like with the other way around
[02:18] <Sotek> Yeah. Also, atmospheric pressure is at least partially determined by gravity.
[02:18] <EdorFaus> hm yea
[02:18] <EdorFaus> you could still live in facilities though
[02:18] <Sotek> True, not instant, but then, you're not going to be able to reproduce.
[02:18] <EdorFaus> centrifugal gravity :)
[02:18] <Kaelic> Maybe physical attributes should not be a factor at all, it could only complicate the game past 
  what it should be
[02:18] <Sotek> Mm... true. Centrifugal grav.
[02:19] <Sotek> ...mm, Kael, I don't agree.
[02:19] <Sotek> It'd actually simplify things somewhat.
[02:19] <Sotek> Because then people would /want/ to be able to share space.
[02:19] <EdorFaus> removing it does take things away from realisticality
[02:19] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:19] <Sotek> I mean, if you have five planets around a star, with the model I want, you may well /have/ to 
  have five races there.
[02:19] <Sotek> (well, that is, have to have five to be able to use them all.)
[02:20] <Sotek> While, with your model, you'd wind up with systems being fully taken by single races due to the 
  ease of defense.
[02:20] <Kaelic> Basicly people don't want to have to design a really good species, they want to play the 
  strategy bit
[02:20] <Kaelic> I agree with limitations but not extreme
[02:20] <Sotek> Well, Kael...
[02:20] <EdorFaus> or if some of them can't be used, you could mine them with robots
[02:20] <Sotek> for what I'm saying, you make it so all races are essentially 'equal'.
[02:21] <Sotek> That is, two races may not be able to use /any/ of the same planets, but they'll have the same 
  number and same quality overall.
[02:21] <Sotek> And thus, if someone wants to play with something for, say, RP value, they can. And if not, they 
  won't.
[02:21] <Kaelic> So what happens when more people need X type of planets then there are available because 
  everyone likes playing X type species, they have to start over?
[02:21] <EdorFaus> I'd say go with a stars-like atm/temp/grav model, with limitations to what can be selected... 
  and the new race dialogs should have random default values :)
[02:21] * Sotek shrugs.
[02:21] <Sotek> Then something becomes a limited resource.
[02:22] <Sotek> And they try to destroy a few, and you make sure to inform newbies of availability. :P
[02:22] <Kaelic> And I don't think species physical abilities should be a huge issue
[02:22] <EdorFaus> hm, that's a good idea... in the box where you specify your new race, show what parts are the 
  most heavily used ones
[02:23] <Sotek> For a starsish hab model, yes, otherwise, not really, IMO. and yes, warn the newbies. :P
[02:23] <EdorFaus> (and say that it's a good idea to not have the same areas)
[02:23] * Sotek nods.
[02:23] <Kaelic> But they are still newbies
[02:23] <Sotek> So, Kael? :P
[02:23] <Kaelic> Say Bob can live on Planet X and it is perfectly suited for him, he should still be able to 
  live on Freds perfect Y planet, but with limitations, but still be able to live
[02:23] <Sotek> Oh, I agree to a point.
[02:24] <Sotek> Well, let's take our five-planet system.
[02:24] <Sotek> Let's say we've got Bob on the third planet. Further, let's say it's just the temperature that 
  matters, so the innermost is hottest, outermost is coldest.
[02:24] <Sotek> Bob /loves/ that third planet. It's perfect. If he goes to the second or fourth, he'll be able 
  to live, but not well.
[02:25] <Sotek> If he goes to the first or fifth, he might be able to /barely/ live, but certainly not have kids.
[02:25] <Sotek> Now, take Hank. Hank loves the /second/ planet. He likes first and third, but not the fourth or 
  fifth. So Hank and Bob will probably agree not to take eachother's planets.
[02:25] <Sotek> They'll each have a perfect and a good.
[02:26] <Sotek> Y'see?
[02:26] <EdorFaus> first and second you mean? :P
[02:26] <Sotek> han loves the second and likes the first and third, Edor. :P
[02:26] <Kaelic> But Bob can still decide he wants first and second and take them? even if he is limited to 
  being there, right?
[02:26] <EdorFaus> I get what you mean, and think it's a good idea. what about you, Kaelic?
[02:26] <Sotek> Hank'll have the first and second, Bob'll have the third and fourth.
[02:26] <Sotek> Yes, he can of course take them.
[02:26] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:26] <Kaelic> Okay thats sorted
[02:26] <Sotek> Although he might have to bomb Hank out on that first planet.
[02:26] <Kaelic> As long as there aren't one race who can never go where one can
[02:27] <EdorFaus> another thing is, if Bob gets some really good tech, he might be able to live perfectly even 
  on the fifth planet... in facilities(with heating systems)
[02:27] <Sotek> Well, Hank might not be able to /live/ on that fifth planet, but he can make use of it.
[02:27] <Sotek> If only with robot mining or some such.
[02:27] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:28] <Kaelic> Maybe we could implement really high terraforming points, so Hank could eventually be able to 
  live on the fifth planet, even if it were with restrictions, he could still live there
[02:28] <Sotek> Sure, perhaps.
[02:28] <Sotek> But he might have to work on it for a while.
[02:28] <Kaelic> Right
[02:28] <EdorFaus> yea - but only late in the game
[02:28] <EdorFaus> when the tech has been made
[02:28] <JFeeple> Hunter: heh, that games about over anywho
[02:29] <Yeo> hey ashtur
[02:29] <EdorFaus> and by that time, Bob might have it so powerfully that it's not worth it to take it :)
[02:29] <Kaelic> well we made it past starting a species
[02:29] <Sotek> Well, it could also be that terraforming can be started early, but takes a /really/ long time? :P
[02:29] <Sotek> yes. Okay. So there's hab...
[02:30] <Yeo> ?
[02:30] <Sotek> Should hab be basically the only customizeable thing?
[02:30] <Kaelic> I think it should be the only Physical attribute
[02:30] <Yeo> ?
[02:30] <Kaelic> The rest would be a development of technology
[02:30] <Yeo> what are yuou discussing
[02:30] <EdorFaus> hab - as in temp,grav,radiation,atmosphere?
[02:30] <Sotek> Well, yes, the only thing customizeable at creation.
[02:31] <Kaelic> yeah
[02:31] <Sotek> Yeah, perhaps all four.
[02:31] <Kaelic> Someone wanna explain to Yeo?
[02:31] <Yeo> i know tyhatm but how does it relate to the rest of race creation and stars! as a whole
[02:31] <Sotek> This isn't stars itself. :P
[02:31] <EdorFaus> there should probably be planets that can't be lived on by anyone too... although not many...
[02:32] <EdorFaus> say, some planets that don't *have* an atmosphere
[02:32] <Kaelic> Edor: Like gas giants or dead rocks?
[02:32] <EdorFaus> yes
[02:32] <Yeo> yer gonna try to create yer own game?
[02:32] <EdorFaus> although it might be possible to live there once tech is high enough
[02:32] <Sotek> Gas giants? Maybe make them the only reliable source of fuel? So you'd have to establish an 
  orbital station around it? :P
[02:32] <Sotek> ...live there... *coughARcough* ;)
[02:32] <EdorFaus> yeo: if you're talking about us, then yes
[02:32] <EdorFaus> hehehe
[02:32] <Yeo> a starbase can orbit a gas giant
[02:32] <Kaelic> Well you could live on dead rocks, like a moon, with a small base of a sort
[02:33] <EdorFaus> yes. as I said, once tech is high enough.
[02:33] <Yeo> there;s the game, fragile allegiance, that's based on staeroids
[02:33] <EdorFaus> (I didn't say anything about *how* high that is :) )
[02:33] <Sotek> I'm thinking not so much tech on that as just time to build the housing.
[02:33] <Kaelic> I think Gas Giants and Nebulas would be the only source of fuel, as people are past the fossil 
  fuels for ships
[02:33] <Yeo> we could live on the moon atm, its the funding thats the problem
[02:34] <EdorFaus> yea I guess
[02:34] <Sotek> 'sactly.
[02:34] <Sotek> Yeh, Kael, point.
[02:34] <Sotek> Regions of space you can use ramscoops, and other regions you /can't/...
[02:34] <Yeo> you could play it like civilisation, with a tax rate
[02:34] <Kaelic> It would also cause disputes over nebulas, which would be very nice cause you can't officially 
  control one :)
[02:34] <EdorFaus> hehe yea
[02:34] <Sotek> Yeees, Kael.
[02:34] <Sotek> Well, how big is a nebula?
[02:35] <Sotek> Not much bigger than a system? Or across several?
[02:35] <EdorFaus> I think planets should be able to make fuel though.. but not necessarily very much of it
[02:35] <Sotek> Oh, sure Edor. Hence 'reliable'. ;)
[02:35] <EdorFaus> at least with the right tech
[02:35] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:35] <Yeo> nebula's tend to encompass several solar systems
[02:35] <Kaelic> I'd say the size of a system would be good, or else it wouldn't be very scarce
[02:35] <Yeo> nebulae to be exact i think
[02:35] <Sotek> If you want to have a fleet... you'd better have a gas giant around... :P
[02:35] <Sotek> Mm...
[02:35] <Sotek> Actually, Kael...
[02:36] <EdorFaus> either that, or you need a large area to get much
[02:36] <Sotek> if the nebulae were spaced out...
[02:36] <Sotek> You'd have it so they'd be perferred areas to travel in.
[02:36] <Kaelic> Good idea
[02:36] <EdorFaus> space highways :)
[02:36] <Sotek> As it'd be free or even refuelling. You'd be able to do it on the /go/. And you'd need enough to 
  get somewhere once you leave... and /exactly/, Edor. ;)
[02:36] <Sotek> on a Gas giant, you'd need a base or at least for an ally to have a base...
[02:36] <Kaelic> Also there should be routes at which you can travel for maximum speed, like spots of less 
  gravity pull, so it would form trade routes and transport routes
[02:37] <Sotek> Oooooh.
[02:37] <Sotek> That's a /FUN/ idea.
[02:37] <Yeo> btw, making any sort of game involves extensive research and testing, and these days, a large 
  developement team
[02:37] <EdorFaus> yeo: research?
[02:37] <EdorFaus> :P
[02:38] <Yeo> into the prorgramming language yer gonna code it in, etc...
[02:38] <EdorFaus> ah... well...
[02:38] <Sotek> If you made it so that the speed/fuel you got/used was based on the gravity pulls, that'd be 
  /cool/.
[02:38] <EdorFaus> it's just on the planning stage yet, so...
[02:38] <Sotek> Well, Yeo, if you know a language... and remember, I don't /think/ we're exactly planning to 
  sell it anyway. :P
[02:38] <Yeo> heh
[02:38] <Kaelic> Sotek: Yeah, so for efficiency people would run certain spots, and it would be hotspots for 
  pirating, or escorting
[02:38] <Yeo> you gotta get the devteam motivated as well
[02:39] <Sotek> 'sactly, Kael.
[02:39] <EdorFaus> nah.. more like having the server semi-opensource and the client opensource :)
[02:39] <Yeo> sometimes it can work, like nethack
[02:39] <Sotek> Some areas will be cheap fuel.
[02:39] <EdorFaus> yeo: if you have a game that programmers tend to like... :)
[02:39] <Yeo> nethack is open source, and very good
[02:39] <Kaelic> Isn't Nethack single player?
[02:39] <Yeo> yup
[02:39] <Sotek> I mean, if you /NEED/ to go across a well quickly, you can use massive fuel. If you don't... you 
  can take the fuel-cheaper routes, and people can set up refueling stations and so on.
[02:40] <EdorFaus> just see here, stars! is a game liked by several programmers(just see the contigent in this 
  channel), so there are several free utilities for it
[02:40] <Yeo> but it has a very dedicated following
[02:40] <EdorFaus> yep
[02:40] <Kaelic> Sotek: Hey it would be like setting up shops
[02:40] <Yeo> stars! is an interesting case
[02:41] <Yeo> its doesn't really hold up against modern day games, but it has the fanbase to still support it
[02:41] <Sotek> 'sactly, Kael. :P
[02:41] <Sotek> Fuel for whatever.
[02:41] <Kaelic> What was Stars! written in?
[02:41] <Sotek> VB, wasn't it? :P
[02:41] <Sotek> Yeo, same with nethack. :P
[02:41] <Sotek> And we're hoping to tap the Stars! fanbase, I think.
[02:41] <Yeo> coulda been written in any visual language. cept java
[02:42] <Yeo> cos java is cack
[02:42] <Sotek> Doesn't Stars! require a VBRUN dll?
[02:42] <Kaelic> I can't see Stars! being a VB game :)
[02:42] <Orca> Stars! was written in C :P
[02:42] <Yeo> visual c++ then?
[02:42] <Sotek> Really? hm. I'd heard it was VB.
[02:42] <Orca> at least as far as I remember Jeff saying
[02:42] <Orca> hah
[02:42] <Orca> no, it's not VB
[02:42] <Yeo> most games these games are c or c++
[02:42] * Sotek knows C++. ;)
[02:42] <Yeo> its the fastest language
[02:43] <Orca> I'm almost positive it's C
[02:43] <Sotek> Probably.
[02:43] <Orca> (might have been visual C or something)
[02:43] <Sotek> well, visual C's basically a development environment, so.
[02:43] <Yeo> c and c++ are sorta similar
[02:43] <Kaelic> So what do we have to look at now?
[02:43] <Sotek> ...bliiitz. ;_;
[02:44] <Sotek> ...ahem.
[02:44] <Sotek> Meh. I should be heading out in not too long.
[02:44] <Yeo> mind you, java and c are similar in their syntax
[02:44] <Kaelic> eh wow
[02:44] <Kaelic> Its 1.45am
[02:44] <EdorFaus> 02:44 here
[02:45] <Kaelic> I think I need sleep
[02:45] <EdorFaus> k.. cya l8r
[02:45] <Kaelic> bye
[02:45] *** Kaelic Quit
[02:46] <Yeo> in any case, the difficulty with a strategy game aint the coding of it, its the balcning of the 
  rules
[02:47] <Sotek> I know. :P
[02:47] <Orca> ...and making it interesting, and having a usable interface
[02:47] <Sotek> ...right. I'll ask one last time. Anyone who wants to blitz /now/? If not, I'd better head off.
[02:48] <Yeo> usuable interfaces are easy enuff
[02:48] * Orca snorts
[02:48] <Orca> Yeo:  As requirements get more complex, that certainly is NOT true.
[02:48] <Yeo> you gotta make it as simple as possible, with everything intuitive
[02:48] <JFeeple> rule 1) Have a variety of possible approaches that are at bare minimum viable
[02:49] <Orca> uh huh.
[02:49] <Sotek> Rule 2? :P
[02:49] <EdorFaus> we were planning to have the client open source, so people can write their own interfaces if 
  they don't like the original one...
[02:49] <JFeeple> I mean, the RTS "rush" strategy is an example of bad game design, that one strategy is so 
  dominat
[02:49] <Yeo> orca: this is the kinda stuff i gotta do for a career. although hopefully i'll do more interesting 
  stuff like AI programming
[02:49] <Orca> Yeo:  So tell me why there are so many programs with ass-tastic interfaces if it's so easy, and 
  tell me why Apple, Microsoft, et al spend millions on interface design :p
[02:50] <JFeeple> Orca: programming by committee :)
[02:50] <Sotek> Depends on what you design, really. :P
[02:50] <Yeo> orca: i dunno
[02:50] <Sotek> If it's a game, there's only so bad the interface can be.
[02:50] <JFeeple> Sotek: *L* you'd be amazed
[02:51] <Yeo> you gotta tailor the design to who you're aiming at, and the general public are very fickle
[02:51] * JFeeple shudders at the demo of Horse N Musket he tried
[02:51] <Yeo> and also very stupid
[02:51] <EdorFaus> an idea is to have several different interfaces people can choose from, and preferably 
  customizable at least to some degree
[02:52] * Orca points at SE4 as an example of poor interface design
[02:52] <Yeo> heh, thats why i use litestep instead of the standard windows interface
[02:52] <EdorFaus> an "easy" one for the stupids, and a "hard" one for the advanced/good players
[02:52] <Yeo> bit like winzip?
[02:52] <EdorFaus> heh
[02:52] <EdorFaus> dunno, I
[02:52] <JFeeple> Ashtur's 3rd rule of computing: Every layer of program complexity adds the cube more bugs
[02:52] <Yeo> or icq?
[02:53] <EdorFaus> 've tried the wizard interface of winzip :P
[02:53] <Orca> the wizard interface, to put it mildly, blows
[02:53] <EdorFaus> er, I've *never* tried it
[02:53] <Yeo> yup, i agree with ashtur. the more you try to do, the more bugs you have to correct
[02:53] <EdorFaus> yea
[02:53] <Orca> It's ok if you like MS Bob, but otherwise, it sucks :P
[02:54] <EdorFaus> one reason to have at least the client opensource, then bugs will be fixed quickly :)
[02:54] <Yeo> hm..., possibly
[02:54] <EdorFaus> and the server semi-opensource if not completely opensource
[02:54] <JFeeple> I put it bad, but I hope you have the diea
[02:54] <JFeeple> idea
[02:54] * JFeeple kicks himself
[02:54] <Yeo> ashtur, you been drinking?
[02:54] <Sotek> Well, the way we wnat to do the client is that the bugs would all be display bugs and so on. The 
  various interfaces would be different frontends.
[02:54] <JFeeple> Yeo: just Mt Dew
[02:54] <Yeo> heh, i'm gradually corrupting the entire channel
[02:55] <EdorFaus> yea, the server should check all data and so on
[02:55] <Sotek> It might let you /try/ to do impossible things, but the server'd reject it.
[02:55] <EdorFaus> that's what I was thinking earlier too :)
[02:55] <Sotek> And having server check is something that I think is important anyway, if only because of memory 
  editors.
[02:55] <Orca> Sotek:  That's a fundamental aspect of multiplayer design
[02:55] <Orca> NEVER TRUST THE CLIENT
[02:56] <EdorFaus> e.g., if the client tells the player he can live on a planet he really can't live on, when he 
  colonizes he won't get the expected result :) and it's his fault for using the bad client :)
[02:56] <Yeo> windows has several million lines of code, which is 99% bug free. that leaves several thousand 
  lines of bugged code
[02:56] <Sotek> 'sactly. ;)
[02:56] <EdorFaus> heh yea
[02:56] <EdorFaus> we should do this as modular as possible
[02:57] <EdorFaus> so that if there are bugs in one part, it can be fixed and be sorta plugged in instead of 
  having to change the entire thing
[02:57] * Yeo notes he was supposed to code wonders and shit miracles this weekend, but at least he;s done more 
  than the rest of em
[02:57] <Sotek> Mm, Yeo?
[02:58] <Sotek> That's just a matter of good code, Edor. ;)
[02:59] <EdorFaus> yes but still. strive for modularity :)
[02:59] <Sotek> I mean good cod/ING/. erm. Yes. :P
[03:00] <Sotek> good coding practice.

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