[18:07] Do you think its possible to create a Massive Multiplayer Online Strategy Game? [18:07] course it is. why shouldnt it be? [18:07] Okay, would you make it so you could wipe each other out? [18:08] Kaelic: if the goal of the game is winning over other players, it probably should be... :P [18:09] Edor: But nobody would pay for a game they could lose in [18:09] oh really? [18:09] eh. [18:09] * Alien shakes his head at kaelic. crazy. crazy. [18:09] Not the average amount of 10 dollars a month atleast [18:09] don't most ppl lose in the games they play some times before winning? :P [18:09] Edor: I mean a subscription game like Ultima Online or Jumpgate [18:11] heh, well, I wouldn't know about those... never played 'em... but if it's a good game, and they don't have to pay extra to start over, why wouldn't they? [18:11] Imagine a strategy game with thousands of other players, with a huge universe and decent visuals, and people having alliances or peace treaties or shipping agreements, like the workings of a sci-fi universe [18:11] sounds nice [18:12] Well people that play online games like UO and things build up characters over years and if they were told they could lose it all and have to start over they wouldn't play, all of that work for nothing puts a lot of people off [18:12] and it should probably be possible to wipe others out... otherwise some of the realism would be lost... imo those that are wiped out should be able to start again without any extra pay though [18:12] hm [18:13] I've been thinking about a way to have domination a possibility but without people losing everything [18:13] but just hasn't come to me yet [18:13] well, if it's not possible, some others probably wouldn't play either... [18:13] exactly [18:14] besides, complete domination would be at least as bad as losing everything, I mean if you're controlled by someone else with no real(istic) way of getting back up... [18:14] I have a slight idea but don't know if it would work [18:15] well, you could make one ver where out-wiping is possible and one where it isn't; I think the former would get more players though [18:16] Have an NPC government in control of part of the universe and give new planets the ability to join at a tax cost for protection, and this protection sends instant help if needed when attacked, but its not always perfect, and when someone does have there last system taken they would be relocated by the government to a new planet under their protection from which to build up, but I haven't put much thought into it [18:17] hmmm, that sounds like it could possibly work... [18:18] although what happens if a member gets big and takes on another member? :P [18:18] *** Orca is now known as Jancey [18:19] The government would condone the attack and send help to the ones being attacked? I dunno, maybe if staff ran the NPC government then they would be able to make more decisions [18:20] and what would happen if you wanted to no longer have protection? :P would you be allowed out, or would they be annoyed, or..? [18:21] Edor: I'm trying to bend more towards realism, what would happen if a system pulled out of a republic? I think the republic would demand to know why but still release them, they don't want to lose support from their other systems [18:22] ya I guess... hm, and you could make it so that ppl that left weren't allowed back in or something similar :) [18:22] IMO, a massively multiplayer game isn't going to work if you allow players to eliminate each other [18:22] yeah, or if they wanted in bad enough they could pay the republic a large sum to be allowed back in [18:23] yea something like that [18:23] nuvem|wrk: why? [18:23] EF: I think it was mentioned above... you tend to lose all you've worked for, and people don't really like that [18:23] think the possibility of elimitating other players is some of the attraction for some players [18:24] yes some would like it, but a majority probably wouldn't [18:24] EF: it is, but it's also going to result in really good players *owning* everything [18:24] the possibility of totally crushing someone else... [18:24] yea... I guess... [18:25] But if it was possible to make wars so long drawn that the invasion of another government wouldn't be over quickly, people could get help or pay for defense or what not, some way to make the war last a long time [18:25] That way they don't really have to be wiped out, they can avoid it [18:25] hm, you could have sortof like a level system... once players reach a certain amount of power, they're moved up a level to people of similar power [18:25] And another way is to make it so nobody knows the whole universe, like you don't know where anyone is unless told or you explore [18:25] yea I guess that could work [18:25] heh yea [18:25] that's always good, not knowing where other ppl are unless you've found them [18:26] (a nice thing then is if you've scanned a planet, and then a new player joins and gets that planet :) [18:26] yeah, and if the universe was big enough, people wouldn't know for awhile, the only mapped regions would be the main NPC government who trades a lot and tries to keep the peace [18:26] every new player would be a new species of a sort, unknown to anyone [18:26] yea [18:26] Kaelic: you could also change the scope slightly, have all the players be factions in a republic rather than forces in their own right... inter-republic war would have to be drawn out and careful (otherwise the republic's own forces could step in) [18:27] players could also have the option of dropping out of the republic (akin to player vs. player zones in some online RPGs) [18:28] Yeah I was thinking of something along those lines [18:28] * nuvem|wrk thinks that would actually be pretty fun [18:28] I would like diplomacy and trade to be as much of a factor to war as fighting [18:29] well, make powerful weapons be in short supply then :) [18:29] with players being part of a government, they could very well be more important if you wanted [18:30] Edor: I like that idea, and possible give the Republic the most advanced, so they can maintain superiority [18:30] * nuvem|wrk thinks intelligence gathering could also be important [18:31] hmm /me just got an idea [18:31] And I was thinking of something like a Senate in the republic, with staff members running as the leaders of the Republic [18:31] enemy killing you in a war? oops, did I just expose their illegal weapons research? oh darn >:) [18:31] lol [18:31] hehehe [18:31] Whats your idea Edor? [18:32] I got an idea about some sort of honor system... point based, more points are good, you get to look down on those with little honor... and attacking someone less powerful than you subtracts points :) [18:32] and even more points if they are very less powerful :) [18:33] I like that [18:33] and could put in some penalties for low honor points... say, if you have less than so and so much honor, there is a chance that your captains will desert and take off with the ships :) [18:34] Honor could be used in the Senate, and NPC traders would not deal as much with you [18:34] not sure what would add honor points though... possibly protecting someone less powerful than you that are under attack by someone [18:34] yea [18:35] could be hard to implement though; but shouldn't be impossible [18:35] I was also thinking you could do propaganda plans, like make your attacks look justified with a lot of public propaganda and things, keep your people happy with you [18:35] yea [18:36] there should be ways of screwing up there too ofcourse... if you do the wrong thing with propaganda, you suddenly get less public support :) [18:37] I was thinking that ships would be a very important thing, making them take a long time to build and a lot of resources, and they wouldn't died very easy either, like a battle between 2 capital ships could last for a very long time and the loser rather then just dieing would most likely suceed the territory and run back to a port [18:37] heh [18:38] heh [18:38] propoganda needs imperfect information [18:39] well, I think it should be possible to destroy ships, but that they usually will only be disabled.. and need repair, and if not repaired, have greater chance of being destroyed next time... lose their capabilities as they are damaged etc [18:40] (like, if the other ship happens to hit your weapons... you can't shoot that weapon anymore... if they hit your engines, you can't move...) [18:40] Yeah, and ship design should be a lot like Stars! with hundreds and hundreds of different possibilities [18:40] yea [18:41] oh here is a thought [18:41] honor system in there too, if a ship is disabled and then the attacker proceeds to destroy it(after it has sortof "given up" due to not being able to do anything) you should lose honor [18:42] and the crew of a ship can make mistakes, imperfectly follow orders etc :P although that should be seldom... [18:42] How about there be two large republic like governments that are at war, both of most equal power and the player can choose who the join, and by joining one they would be able to privateer on the opposing government without penalty, if you see what I mean [18:42] maintenance should be required too [18:42] hrhrhr [18:42] s/r/e/ *3 [18:43] you lost me [18:43] 3 times s/r/e/ [18:43] Whats s/r/e/? [18:43] as in, replace r with e :P [18:43] I think it's perl or java syntax or something, just seen it used on here [18:44] Why did you say it? [18:44] esp. in this channel, not so much elsewhere... possibly because this channel has a relatively large compliment of programmers :P [18:44] hrhrhr <- replace r with e 3 times [18:44] :P [18:44] lol okay then :) [18:44] It's regular expression syntax [18:45] mostly used in perl, but the perl regexes have been ported hither and thither [18:45] My extent of programming is Visual Basic and some Basic...sadly [18:45] heh k [18:45] he [18:45] h [18:46] * EdorFaus has done quite a bit VB too [18:46] I think I've done more turbo pascal though... [18:47] Oh and if there were two large governments then players could choose to participate in attacks with one, kinda like a staff run event, the "Blah Blah" Republic making a move on a "Blah Blah" Federation shipyard and the players could attack with them, the players could even help effect the course of the war [18:47] and some assembler, delphi, and basic. [18:47] hehe yea [18:47] would have to be careful so one side doesn't win though [18:48] Yeah, but as long as both sides start off equal and are extremely large, then it shouldn't be a huge problem at first [18:48] and winning could be a good part to the game, if the galaxy is 50/50 and a year later its 75/25 then it would be more real [18:48] yea. later it could become one though... [18:49] yea I guess [18:49] maybe even encourage players to form their own republics or alliances, nothing stopping them [18:49] although you could end up with a free-for-all-because-one-side-won thing, unless you plan to restart it after a while :P [18:51] that would be nice [18:51] restart is possible but I was hoping if one side won, by then people would have their own large alliances, if not then maybe the new leaders could become oppressive and a group of freedom fighters show up to get the players to take on the new government, anything really [18:52] start with a 50/50 universe, end up with a 6/5/9/2/5/3/5/4/8/.... universe :) [18:52] yeah, that would be great [18:52] Just think of all the politics and deals being done between players [18:52] that would work [18:52] heh yea [18:52] then the staff wouldn't have to do anything, a player run universe would be working on its own [18:53] you could end up with a 99/1 universe too though... the 1 being new players not yet crushed :P [18:53] yea [18:53] I think if it turned out 99/1 with newbie bashers then something went terrible wrong and its time for a restart [18:53] yes [18:53] or rather, a change-and-then-restart [18:53] yeah [18:54] Fix the mistake [18:54] bugs should ofcourse be ironed out without restarts as much as possible, although sometimes it might be neccessary [18:54] :P [18:54] bugs and minor imbalances and the like [18:54] heh [18:54] Maybe instead of 50/50 NPC governments, it could be 30/30/10/10/20 NPC Governments with the two 30's at war and the others just sitting back in their own territory [18:55] you really need to look at Planetarion [18:55] there's a lot of lessons to be learned there :p [18:55] (in terms of stuff to AVOID - not to do :) [18:55] lol [18:55] I played that a little when it started... it has restarted since tho :P [18:55] heh [18:55] I think Planetarion is everything this wouldn't be [18:56] what's planetarion like now? I haven't even looked at or heard anything about it for ages [18:56] Its basicly 99/1 with newbie bashers if you ask me [18:56] k [18:56] Planetarion sucks donkey butt [18:57] I was thinking about it earlier, as an example of a sorta-similar game (as in, it's multiuser and some of the same idea) [18:57] If you start a month after everyone your toast, if your not in a huge alliance your toast [18:57] k. would have to try to avoid that here [18:57] it should imo be possible to not join any of the existing factions and still survive, at least for a while [18:58] What do you mean? [18:58] when new people join, even more than a month after start... they should imo not *have* to join an existing faction/alliance at once to survive [18:59] besides, something that might be a good idea would be that they'd have to find it first :) [18:59] or it(the alliance) find them [19:02] You mean as if they were a species that just started leaving home? [19:03] yea [19:03] that is, after all, the most fitting analogy imo :) [19:03] since they just started playing the game :) [19:03] Thats a good idea but what happens when they are searching the galaxy and they run into a non-pleasant player who decides that they could do with taking their ship [19:04] the biggest problem with planetlamium is that it only has a single universe. I'd make it so all the signups from a single week go into 1 universe which is then closed at which point time beings running for everyone, and is ran seperately from every other universe. [19:05] summ: I suggested another fix for it... what you suggest means it would probably become many 99/1 (or 100/0) small universes [19:05] There would definately be different servers for different regions of the world but without new players signing up it would cause what Edor just said [19:05] I suggested having many universes, but who's in which is based on their power... once you reach a certain level of power, you're moved into the universe with players of the same power level [19:06] allow people create a planet in as many universes as they want. No newbies, playing against bigger people so no need to have anti newbie bashing rules to prevent people from being wiped out. when a single alliance gains total control in a universe it's game over [19:06] brb [19:06] Summoner: If a newbie joins one of the NPC governments they won't be able to be bash easily [19:06] plus they will be hidden to everyone that hasn't found them [19:07] hm, you know, you could make it so that players not yet having joined an alliance should be asked to join by whomever finds 'em first... [19:07] Good idea [19:08] Thats better then them finding the alliance and asking to join [19:08] Oh I just thought of something [19:08] besides, even more powerful players would want more players for his/her own side, in order to win against the other side :) [19:08] It would help lower bashing on small people [19:08] oh? what? [19:10] Just make it so taking systems under control is a very costly choice and manpower will be considered a resource which grows but can be run thin, so some guy couldn't go around taking over every newbie because his people wouldn't like it, and he just flat out couldn't control that many places without a huge supply of men, instead it would be easier for anyone to make a new ally, regardless of who they are [19:10] yea [19:10] good idea [19:11] since no species would let another take their planet, just make it so men would fight to the last man on a plan being invaded, making it very costly for taking out newbies, but invasions would still be needed against enemy alliances [19:11] plan = planet [19:11] yea [19:13] oh, and make it so that the more planets you have, the fewer there are on each... the specific number will grow, but ... [19:13] lets say it costs the same to invade a planet with men and take it with a newbie as it does someone big because the men would all have basicly the same ground technology, but taking someone larger would have a bigger reward of resources even though the large fleet battle [19:13] Yeah, kinda like on stars, if you take a load of planets your population runs thin quickly [19:14] yea. then it would actually be much *harder* to take a newbie than a planet of an older player [19:14] should population on a planet determine efficiency of using it? like resource gathering and building [19:14] hmm... probably [19:14] not sure to what degree though [19:15] yeah, the older players would have vacilities built and ready to use, the newbie would have next to nothing [19:15] but the newbie would have more ppl on the planet, so can build it up quicker :) [19:16] sounds like a perfect way to stop newbie bashers [19:16] people would rather have a new ally with a lot of men then their planet [19:16] yea [19:16] seems like a really good idea [19:17] you'd end up having to pull all the people off several of your planets just to take one of a newer player's :P [19:18] the only thing risked now is manipulating new players to send off loads of men and then ruining themselves at the gain of the "friend" they thought they had, but I guess a tutorial would teach them something [19:18] hmm, not sure to what degree you should be able to move ppl and resources and stuff around though... [19:18] imo, you shouldn't be able to move ppl the same way as cargo, like in Stars!... [19:19] I think making fuel a large factor would keep people at bay some, and it would be a very important resource people would need [19:19] ppl want some comfort, not to be packed together in a cargo bay :P [19:19] yea [19:19] Oh I see what you mean, like maybe have specialist troop ships or transport ships? Which also have to carry supplies for the people [19:19] yea [19:20] although there can be specialized supply ships too, of course [19:20] (which would be able to carry lots more of it) [19:20] have you ever played Conquest? [19:20] hmm... don't think so [19:20] don't recognize the name, at least [19:21] I think I remember playing risk a long time ago though... when I was a kid... [19:21] :P [19:21] Well in that each ship carries a supply ammount which is used for firing weapons and when they run out they need re-supplied to fire again, something like that would be good [19:22] yea [19:22] at least for the more powerful weapons [19:22] yeah, cause realisticly a ship couldn't go on forever with fighting, it would give people something to think about in war, not just superiority [19:23] should probably have some "laser" weapons or something, which does a little damage but not much... and then torpedoes/rockets that do more damage but run out [19:23] would mean you'd have to build weapon factories on your planets :) [19:24] What do you think about research and technology? should each player be able to custom design their race as they progress their technology? if so I was thinking if they choose beam weapons they lose really good turret weapoms and they kind of have to specialise [19:25] no single weapon type would be better than another, each would have its advantages and disadvantages, see what I mean? [19:25] well, I think they should be able to do a little configuring of their race before starting play... and have a choice as to what to research next... but I don't think they should know what breakthroughs appears to be coming soon [19:25] yea [19:26] beam weaps not powerful, but don't run out... or run out of the more powerful blasts...(overheating, maybe) while the others are more powerful but runs out fairly quick [19:26] Also I think it would be a good idea if the NPC governments ran by staff were just like players but much larger, and they had the same restrictions but are just very large, so it would be possible to squeeze the resources out of one rather then just beat them sensless [19:27] yea I guess [19:27] they should abide by the same rules, of course [19:27] yeah, I mean if the staff that ran it could just instant create ships, it would lose realism [19:27] it would just annoy people that some empires can do stuff they can't :P [19:27] yea [19:28] but they should probably have a rather large supply of them already when the game starts :) [19:28] yeah [19:28] and probably the highest technology [19:28] and enough planets, people, resources, factories, etc that it would take a *lot* to beat them down... but it should be possible, given enough time/resources [19:29] if not *the* highest then at least *high* [19:29] and since they "start" before everyone else, they do have an advantage :) [19:30] I would definately play a game like this [19:31] I think I'd like to try it too... although maybe not if I had to pay, at least not if it was expensive [19:31] What would you think of 10 dollars a month? [19:31] it's not really my very favorite type of game, and I don't play games much anyway [19:32] *shrug* dunno. not only do I not know how much that is, I wouldn't really know what is much even if given in a currency I know :P [19:32] I guess it really depends how good it is [19:32] yea [19:32] if people feel it gets them value for money they would pay [19:33] besides, it could be an idea to start cheap, and once you've gotten some players and a little publicity, push it higher [19:33] and if people pay to play crap like Everquest I don't see why they wouldn't pay for this [19:33] heh I guess [19:33] Some games offer the game for free for like 2 months then they go gold with it and charge, kinda like a refined beta test [19:34] so; everquest is an online multiplayer game you have to pay to use(and not just once either)? :P [19:34] heh [19:34] good idea I gues [19:34] not only do they get to find bugs, but they get to see if people are interested even when free... [19:35] plus, publicity and a user base to start with [19:36] Hey if my C++ course next year pays off maybe I'll make the game, lol wouldn't that be good? [19:38] hehehe :) [19:39] I could help you once I get through school :) [19:39] gah gotta go, hey it was great comin up with ideas with you, catch ya later [19:39] just have to start CS first... I'll probly learn C++ there though... we'll see in 3 years :) [19:39] k, cya l8r [19:39] *** Kaelic Quit