[00:42] Edor! I saw in buffer you talking about a MMORPG variant of Stars! :o [00:42] ah heh, that's Kaelic's idea, not mine :) [00:42] Ah. Hmm. Bah. ;) [00:42] I think it sounds cool. ;) [00:43] yea me too... [00:43] although he wanted to charge money to play it :P [00:43] Pffftyeahright. :P [00:44] What I'd do to solve the problem of a few people ruling the universe would be to have it create new galaxies every so often for new players, so newbies would face off /against/ newbies, and make it extremely expensive to traverse between galaxies. ^^ [00:45] sotek: that was suggested [00:45] another thing that was suggested was that once players reached a certain level of power, they were moved into a new universe with players of similar power [00:46] Hmm. [00:46] I don't like that one. ^^ [00:46] another thing suggested was making the game so that established players would rather have the newbies as allies instead of breaking them - possibly by making it very hard to break 'em [00:46] True... hm. [00:46] How to do that, tho'. :P [00:46] we were looking into ways of doing it too :) [00:47] Well, that's one thing I'm suggesting. ^^ [00:47] Sotek: Hey, if you could run a server to support thousands of people at once 23/7 with decent graphics and not costing anything, I would love to do it that way [00:47] If it's like Stars, Kaelic, you won't /get/ thousands of people. [00:47] Even a hundred would cost a lot to support [00:47] And it can be a MMORPGish with turnbased. [00:48] And I can do a MUD for free for yes, less people. Having a hundred /at all times/, I could do if it were starsish. [00:48] Then it just isn't the same [00:49] ...isn't the same as what? [00:49] well, any such game will have to be turnbased... only difference is how small timeframe the turns are(as in, <1sec or >5mins) [00:49] Anyway, Edor, my way was to be a suggestion on that. ^^ [00:50] Specifically, getting to /anyone/ else is highly expensive, but if you can establish, you could probably do nasty things. ^^ [00:51] we were thinking of making it so that to invade, you'll need ppl... like in a popdrop... but a planet has more ppl the less planets that player has :) [00:51] Hm. Plausible, but that means there's a point at which people won't /want/ to expand. [00:52] Sotek: The populations would grow of course, just not fast enough to be on a constant offensive [00:52] so a big player with lots of planets may have to pull all the people from several of zir planets just to take one planet of a player with few/one planets [00:52] Oh, I see. sort of like how stars's growth works, but with #planets affecting it too? [00:53] something like that-. [00:53] but also that new players start with rather many ppl on their one world [00:53] Right. You start perhaps with a maxed? [00:53] Would let people start out faster. [00:54] well, if not maxed then at least very many [00:54] Yeah, so people look more towards less populated large players planet to make assaults on even if they risk hitting a defensive fleet [00:54] Mmmhm. I /see/. Or a newbie immunity as some such games do... [00:55] and also, # of ppl on a planet will affect how quickly it builds up, so new players' worlds will grow big and strong sooner than experienced players' worlds (assuming they have many planets) [00:55] * Sotek is currently thinking along the lines of Planetarion and Empirequest for those who've played 'em. [00:55] Logical. :P [00:55] I played planetarion a little, way back before the restart [00:56] I played a bit too [00:56] Which restart, Edor? ;) [00:56] there's been new ones? :P I'm thinking the first one :P [00:56] I played off and on until they went to pay. [00:56] Also the nice thing about this newbie system is it allows people to play more defensively, stay tucked in and build from there without risk of much attack, biding time slowly [00:56] Right... [00:57] Well, see, if it's non-pay, I'd /like/ to see people getting slain a lot. [00:57] Perhaps new galaxies of the size of a single Stars! game, and only two or three of the people in it are likely to make it on. [00:58] perhaps you should try Territories [00:58] Also, if you have tech, there could be a chance of gaining tech just by /fighting/ someone with highly advanced tech. Sort of an "Ooh. That's possible?" effect. [00:58] Or rather its called Starseige I think [00:59] I mean, if oyu have that and the intergalactic transit cost so that the experienced person would only be able to take a single planet and with little fleet in the new galaxy, as they build up, the newbies can get their tech and possibly team up to force that person out of their galaxy. ^^ [00:59] Doesn't that lose a bit of the MMOG feel? [01:00] heh [01:00] thing is, with all this, what's the point of playing? [01:01] to be better than everyone else I would imagine [01:01] just to play? :P [01:02] How so, Kae? :P [01:02] besides, we were thinking having some big empires that were fighting... you join one side or the other, trying to get rid of the other side... eventually, big players might form new sides... [01:02] If it's strategy, you can only face so many at a time. [01:02] Sotek: Well if it were a bunch of small galaxies and playing to get to better ones, then its more like a tournament game [01:02] Thats the idea, its not just a strategy, but an empire simulator [01:03] ...erm. nono. [01:04] You keep your initial galaxy. And people can attack your home and so on. Early on, you won't be up to the task of attacking outside your home. Later you will... ::Shrug:: [01:04] I think your looking at it more like Planetarion [01:05] sotek: did you read the entire discussion? [01:05] Only what I could see. ^^; [01:05] and I can't see any more now. :P [01:05] k.. I'll grab my logs... so you can see what's suggested [01:06] Maybe so, Kaelic. But Planetarion's limits are a bit excessive; the single-planet per player model's a bit absurd. [01:06] Sotek: You a star wars fan at all? [01:06] A bit. [01:06] You know how the Republic worked/works in it? [01:06] Ah... no. ^^ [01:07] okay...ummm let me think of a better example [01:08] Try just explaining. :P [01:09] Okay imagine theres these large factions, but each faction is made up by the hundreds of different species which decide to join or not, but each species tends to its own matters on its own while still contributing to the whole faction. Each species (which is each a player) will represent itself in a kind of senate in each faction. this probably doesn't make sense from me, maybe the logs will explain better [01:10] Okay... that itself is making sense... [01:10] the factions are the alliances or whatever... yeah. [01:11] yeah, the first few will be very large and staff ran, they won't make all the decisions but will kind of uphold law within their faction zones and keep senate meetings in order [01:11] the hope is that as factions fall to others, player start to form their own and eventually there aren't anymore staff ran factions, and all the players will be running the galaxy in a sense [01:12] Mmmhm. I'd at least suggest there be galaxies, even if they're much larger than stars-type ones, and even if they're just clumps. Erm. ^^ [01:12] Well one galaxy is exceedingly huge, maybe two but a bunch might just get way too big [01:13] there's the log excerpts [01:13] er. excerpt [01:13] Well, how big is big? And is there going to be clustering? :P [01:13] Oh well there will be sectors, spots where stars are closer together in the galaxy, it would just get too chaotic if not [01:14] (note: I just cut out from when he mentioned it to when he left after the discussion, there might be unrelated things there too) [01:14] Heh. :P [01:14] Ooh. Globular clusters? ;) [01:15] hmm... I just thought of something... will this be 2D or 3D? [01:15] I was thinking about that too [01:15] 3D could give it a better realism feel but could also complicate things [01:15] 3D is more realistic and gives more space and possibilities - but is harder both to do and to represent visually [01:15] yea [01:16] 2D makes it much easier to layout borders and things too [01:16] yes... [01:16] while 3D makes it much easier to sneak around borders :) [01:16] Hmm. [01:16] 3D is /cool/. but 3D is tough. :P [01:16] yea [01:16] and especially so to make [01:17] Yeah. And if you have 3D and don't allow vertical attack-type motions, I'll be upset. ;) [01:17] hehe yea [01:17] maybe 3D to an extent to sneak around but not to the point of stacking stars above, like for instance in Star Trek Armada II it is a 3D RTS that is over the top view, but you can go up and down to sneak past people. but just slightly [01:17] Blech. [01:17] hmm [01:18] like imagine a a room being 10ft x 10ft x 2ft, if that makes sense [01:18] that sounds a little dodgy. imo it's best to stick to completely 2D or completely 3D. of which the former is much easier to create and manage... while the latter gives much more player options, realism, and problems in planet management :) [01:19] Yeah, I suppose, Kael. [01:19] I agree with Edor. [01:19] hm yea [01:19] 2.1D is no good. ;) [01:19] heh [01:19] another problem is, where will the edges of the universe be? :P [01:19] The edge of the galaxy. :P [01:19] You go past it, your ships get lost. :P [01:19] Yeah, I mean if you really wanted to fly into the vast emptiness between them [01:19] starting near an edge or near the center might affect playability [01:20] Well, depends on size. [01:20] Also... hm. [01:20] hm, one option would be to utilize the wrap-around theory... that if you go off one edge, you come back at the other [01:20] I was thinking, even though locations will be hidden, new players generally start near civilization, like it creates them as the size of player base is [01:21] Does that make sense? [01:21] rh [01:21] eh [01:21] Actually, I know a point that'd make it almost impossible to wipe someone out assuming we're having it large. I mean, if they're not gone until they've lost /all/ people, if you start with a few 'slowboats' not travelling at warp that might pop up if needed at a new planet... ::Shrug::. [01:21] creates new planets? or? [01:22] Not creates as such. [01:22] Well. [01:22] Creates as a new player joining does. [01:22] Takes an empty planet and pfoof. [01:22] Yeah, have a set number of planets [01:22] yea that's what I thought it should be like [01:22] Because if you have to 'start over' with the same tech and so on, but not your planets... [01:22] Also, don't have penscans. [01:23] sotek: a good idea then might be to start with the tech you had when that ship was launched, or last had contact with other ships :) [01:23] Hm. Yeah, true. Make sure everyone has one to start for free, and then can launch more if they feel the need. :P [01:23] Another possibility is help from your Faction like "The (name here) faction has rescued your few survivors and placed you on a secluded planet" or along those lines [01:23] And make it so nobody can be destroyed by suprise. ;P [01:24] Yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting, Kael, just with a different explanation. Hm. [01:24] Also, allow other players to be able to carry your people so that you can stealth-colonize around an enemy? P [01:24] Sotek: I prefer your method [01:24] Yeah thats a good idea [01:24] hmm good idea... iRL that would be possible [01:25] Or both; The faction intervention requires actual /player/ intervention. [01:25] yea [01:25] But they could in turn ship your men off into a black hole in a double cross [01:25] hehehe yea [01:25] The slowboat is just you sending people into the future as an insurance policy. [01:25] And yes, Kael. Of course. ;) [01:25] or just into deep space for that matter [01:25] Just like in Stars!, if you ask an IT to send your ships from A to B, there's that chance he won't. :P [01:25] Sotek: The slowboat could even bee cryo-ships that people send off to guarantee there races survival [01:26] Essentially what I'm saying, Kael. [01:26] bee? wow I'm tired [01:26] hmm. if your race can survive in really low pressure and without an atmosphere... :P [01:26] Cryo, generation ships, just something charging along at .9c... :P [01:26] Hm. Honor points sounds cool... [01:27] *** Kaelic1 has joined #Stars! [01:27] possibly, yes, although it has problems [01:27] What I miss? [01:27] [01:26] bee? wow I'm tired [01:27] [01:26] hmm. if your race can survive in really low pressure and without an atmosphere... :P [01:27] [01:26] Cryo, generation ships, just something charging along at .9c... :P [01:27] [01:26] Hm. Honor points sounds cool... [01:27] thanks [01:27] np [01:27] Honor points loss is easy enough... hm. Maybe gain just /happens/? [01:27] Like, if you didn't lose any in the last n turns, you gain one? [01:28] that's the problem :P it would be very hard to implement realistically [01:28] Population attitude would be a good replacement for honor [01:28] Like if you do bad things your people don't like you for it, and others can see and know that [01:28] yea... besides, honor is dependant on who looks... [01:29] Well.. hm. [01:29] A reputation that people can see, too? [01:29] Lower rep, more things may cost? [01:29] and what they know... if someone doesn't know about you wiping a small player out, how could they know your honor isn't as large as they think? :P [01:29] Or lower rep, less trade with NPC traders or less say in the senate, many possibilities [01:29] 'swhat I mean, Kael. ^^ [01:30] Point... but then, if we allow a central infobank, things like that could happen allatime... hm. Chance for small random changes due to 'rumor'... [01:30] *** Kaelic Quit (Ping timeout for Kaelic) [01:30] I also suggested yesterday propoganda with your people to cover up incidents [01:30] *** Kaelic1 is now known as Kaelic [01:30] but at a cost of resources and time of course [01:30] not only NPC traders, either... other players might not want to trade with you if your standards are low... they might be percieved as less for doing so [01:31] hm, lose honor for trading with ppl of little honor :) [01:31] True... [01:31] the reputation idea is better tho, imo [01:31] You could have an advisor type thing which checks on a players reputation and tells you when your doing a deal what they do, like known for backstabbing or something [01:31] works sortof the same way [01:31] yea [01:32] either of you ever play Ultima Online or Everquest? [01:32] 'sactly. Yeh... hm. [01:32] not me. neither. [01:32] Sotek: That was a yes to my question? [01:33] I... think so, yes, Kael. ^^; [01:33] and I've played Asheron's Call... ...for a few minutes. [01:33] UGH THE LAMENESS HURT ;_; [01:34] I'm trying to perceive a species as a character, where technology is the skills, for instance you can lose everything in Ultima Online but never your skills, so you will always be worth something, if that was a factor in this then being wiped out to the point of generation ships landing wouldn't be too bad [01:34] hm yea [01:35] Yeah, that's an analogy. [01:35] If you're wiped out, you lose the ability to project power for a while. [01:35] And you stop gain for a bit. [01:35] But you can recover without spending too long. [01:35] although the idea of them not having the very latest of your tech is good imo, since they probably wouldn't have known about it(yet) [01:36] True... hm. I like the idea of when you send a ship, the tech on it is stored. :P [01:36] You could say they transmit it to the ships when they discover it [01:36] iow, the analogy isn't perfect, since it's just a piece of the char that was detached earlier [01:36] Yeah, you could, Kael. The issue is then... [01:36] yea, but if it's the very latest it tech, they might not have had the chance to recieve it before it was too late and the data was lost [01:36] can the ships be discovered? If they're transmissible to, then apparently yes... if they're /not/, then why not? [01:37] Hm. Well, don't you lose a bit of skill points when you die in EQ? [01:37] Just say you lose a level of each tech, that would suffice wouldn't it? [01:37] I say anything learned more recently than x time. [01:37] That would be better [01:37] yea [01:38] So if you /SHOT/ up tech while dying, you might lose a lot. But if you couldn't gain /anything/ while you were dying, maybe you won't lose a thing. [01:38] And of course, you keep /everything/ since your last genship launch. [01:38] ofcourse [01:38] so if you can spare the resources, it might be a good idea to launch one right before you die :) [01:38] Yeeees. ;) [01:38] Which makes sense. [01:38] Also I feel technology shouldn't just be a research action, it should be you actually building a say Propulsion Lab and commiting resources and men to it [01:39] Yeah, that makes sense too, Kael. [01:39] yea [01:39] ...I want to do this. ;_; [01:39] * Sotek probably actually has the ability to write the server-side aspect of it now, it'd just be eeeeevil. :P [01:40] Maybe instead direct levels like 1, 2, 3 it would be a large percentage like in UO, say you start at 10.0 and you build a propulsion lab and over a week your up to 25.9 or something [01:40] hmm. Yes. [01:40] and a good thing is to not know what comes next in tech, except maybe what is very soon to come [01:40] afterall, you don't know that iRL [01:40] How is tech transfer handled, though? [01:41] hmm [01:41] imo it should be possible to give someone an item, so that they can build it (if they can build what's needed to build it) [01:41] Well say at 22.7 you learn a fusion of sort, instead of sending points you actually send the technology but the people won't be able to use it perfectly until they reach 22.7, then they fully understand [01:41] as in, give them the plans [01:41] yea [01:42] good idea [01:42] treat tech items as memes [01:42] Yeah. The plans. I like that idea. [01:42] Yeeeees, Omni. :D [01:42] memes? :P [01:42] yeah, what Edor said [01:42] memes - theoretical/imaginary objects encapsulating abstract concepts [01:43] ie a thought [01:43] ah... [01:43] memes can make a decent model anytime you need to model information flow [01:43] meme : an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture [01:43] that's what they do, natch [01:44] build a tech tree with each node as a meme [01:44] Now, the question is, is anyone actually going to do this? :P [01:44] Well I would in 3 years time [01:44] so, if they have gotten the plans for something, and have the requirements to build it, they should be able to make imperfect copies of it... once they've reached the level where they would get it themselves though, no more imperfection [01:44] memes can be achieved be research and transferred between players [01:45] When I finished my Uni courses [01:45] ...who needs to finish, Kael? ;) [01:45] heh, I'd help :) [01:45] I could at least help now. ;) [01:45] I'm starting CS next year and already have programming experience(well, on a private level) :) [01:45] do it open source - hell you might even talk me into pitching in, lol [01:45] hehe [01:45] Well my programming knowledge is at VB level, my courses at Uni (which I start in september) will be teaching me C++ [01:46] ya... mine is pascal/VB/Delphi/assembler [01:46] but I guess I'll learn C++ too :) [01:46] Who needs to finish? ;P [01:47] It would be a great game to make, even if nobody played [01:47] ...you know assembly? o_O;; [01:47] And Kael? We /KNOW/ there'd be a playerbase. ;) [01:47] At least, there would if it were free. [01:47] well, I'm no expert, but I know the basics of x86 assembly :) [01:47] So... hell. Do it opensource. ;P [01:48] opensource = unscrupulous individuals [01:48] hahaha [01:48] eh [01:48] Kaelic = brain dead [01:48] open source == unscrupulous individuals. Peace is somehow a bad thing. Dude, you've got some STRANGE ideas [01:48] lol [01:49] ...how does opensource = unscrupulous individuals? o_O [01:49] You see, as soon as a cheat is discovered, with opensource, it can be /fixed/. ;) [01:49] What I mean is, if we did make it I would rather not have the source open to people we don't know [01:49] If you mean someone taking it and running their own server, well, yeah, that's a possibility. Big deal. ...hm. well, you don't know me either, but I take your meaning. [01:49] * EdorFaus isn't unscrupulous, at least I don't think so, but I tend to make my stuff open source... true, I haven't really published anything yet, but still. I'm planning to. [01:50] Until it's done, allow anyone who wants in in, but once it's done...? :P [01:50] I just want to start soon, damnit. Big projects are fun. ;) [01:50] hm [01:50] ...can we do a blitz now, if we won't continue planning this? ^_- [01:51] I wouldn't mind starting now [01:51] semi-opensource would be better than closed source at least [01:51] Edor: I agree [01:51] but fully opensource does have problems... [01:51] Yeah, semi-open's a nice idea. At least, open to all the #stars! regs, mm? ;) [01:51] Yeah [01:52] hm. From my POV, the hardest thing to have in a game is a system. ^^ [01:52] should of course say that we want bug reports... and actually *do* something about them whenever possible, not just sit on 'em [01:52] heh [01:52] system, as in..? [01:53] Like, the Engine? [01:53] k [01:53] I think [01:53] Sorta. [01:53] The system being the rules of the engine. [01:53] yea, that's the hardest part... the clients and interface, and client-server deal isn't very hard [01:53] ah [01:53] k [01:53] yea [01:54] I mean, once you have the rules, actually programming them isn't all too tough. [01:54] So we need to come up with rules first then [01:54] heh yea... at least usually [01:54] yep [01:54] hm, is someone writing down what we decide on here? [01:55] :P [01:55] The client, assuming it's largely display, will be /easy/... oh. yes. One thing, I think perhaps the client should be /full/ opensource. Require the login to get the current data, and fully validate all client information (if it's turnbased, that's doable, no?), and allow people to make their own client so long as the data is valid. I mean, if it's largely a display and you control what it's told... ::shrug::. Adn I'm not recording myself. ^ [01:55] Maybe we should come up with some sort of storage, maybe a site we could store logs from here on or something [01:55] Hm. [01:56] hm, I guess [01:56] client being full opensource is a good idea [01:56] I've got a webserver on this box, the problem is nobody but me has actual access to the box. :P [01:56] hmm [01:57] I've got a site where we can put it up... although I don't really like giving out my pwd, I suppose I could put up a php system so we can make posts [01:57] And... yes. Client full opensource. I mean, if we use the stars info model, so long as we don't allow the player to /have/ data they shouldn't, and we validate everything, it won't matter what you do to the client. [01:57] How quick should turns be if it is turn based? [01:57] Hm. Personally, I think that should be adjustable... [01:58] to keep it real-time-like they should be rather short imo [01:58] (server-side, of course.) [01:58] yea I guess [01:58] I think a close to real-time would be good [01:58] Every hour or every day seems to be good models for the Planetarion-type games. [01:58] Maybe fifteen-thirty minutes? [01:58] but I think this needs more realtime than planetarion [01:58] hm [01:58] theres upsides and downsides to this [01:58] yea [01:58] Mm... Planetarion was pretty realtime, IMO. [01:59] I felt more like a turn a minute, at least... [01:59] Remember, you need it so that people can go for a weekend and not get /quashed/. [01:59] so that it is more realtime than not [01:59] A turn a minute is... [01:59] 1440 turns a day... [01:59] Say someone misses three days... [01:59] 4320... [01:59] Okay heres a thought [01:59] That's quite a bit. ^^; [01:59] well, queueing orders and such should be possible, and a turn shouldn't be very much time game-wise either [01:59] Although, it'd be rather like blitz as opposed to PBEMish. Mm. True. [02:00] not like in stars, where a turn is a year [02:00] Good point. [02:00] Well, turn calibration is a testing issue, IMO. [02:00] yea [02:00] if it were actually Real-Time but things went slowly then you could give enough orders for 3 days, or set orders to always follow [02:00] The system itself is the more general point. [02:00] So... hm. Species should be adjustable... /how/ adjustable? [02:01] (and can we do a blitz while we do this or something? :P) [02:01] lol [02:01] heh [02:01] * EdorFaus thinks sotek *really* wants to blitz :) [02:01] Nah. ;) [02:01] I think a species should have just a few key features you pick at start which never change, like physical attributes, then the technology is totally your own choice as which trees you follow [02:02] yea [02:02] Well, yeah. But how much is key attribute wise? [02:02] should not have complete control, at least [02:02] Mm? [02:03] I mean, some things should be common [02:03] Such as? [02:03] make the races clans - players are fleet commanders ala Homeworld but operate via telepresence [02:03] well.. not being able to survive in deep space, not being able to adjust the settings past a certain point... [02:04] hm [02:04] Perhaps every species should be the same physically? ie. they all breath oxygen, they all need a certain gravity, that way the only advantages are types of tech and your strategy [02:04] hm [02:05] that *could* work I guess... but it has disadvantages too [02:05] Mm... well, yeah, no deep-space survival. [02:05] But I like the idea that some planets are completely useless to people. [02:05] I think some things should be settable, like the gravity they can live in, cuz then two races can intercolonize without getting at eachother's throats [02:05] or to some people. [02:05] yea [02:05] Yeh. [02:05] Like... sliders, but they don't go all the way to 0. [02:05] yes [02:06] We just have to make sure they all even out in some way [02:06] Also, if we were to use rad/temp/grav, I'd think rad should be more a region of space thing, so that adjacent planets would be about the same. [02:06] sorta like stars!... but I think immunity should be impossible, and also impossible to grab the entire field [02:06] Or just a fixed width? [02:06] You just sldie it? [02:06] hm, I'd say almost fixed but not completely [02:06] That would work [02:07] But what would they give up for widening? points? :P [02:07] hm, maybe a small margin of adjustment, where you had to have a total amount of width, no more no less [02:07] Aaah. [02:07] So your grav might be thin, but your rad wide. [02:07] so if you widened rad, you'd have to lessen temp or grav [02:07] Yeh... hm. [02:07] yea [02:08] that would probably mean that most would take fairly mid-level races, although we would probably get a few extremes [02:08] Just remember the more complicated physical attributes get, the more likely we accidently make open an uber species [02:08] Well, have it slideable. [02:08] yes ofcourse [02:08] And make sure that the planet distribution is basically random. [02:09] yea [02:09] And that way, if everyone's middle, the extremes are 'uber', but if new people know this... yeah. [02:09] hm.. should we have 1 planet/starsystem like in stars!, or maybe more than 1 planet per star, so that different races might live in the same star system? [02:09]